Direct Democracy since 1387

Transcript of episode 3: 

Hello and welcome to the Rules of the Game podcast, where it is my job to discuss democratic institutions. In this episode, I’m discussing one of the oldest, if not the oldest democratic institution, that is still existing and very much alive and ongoing. That’s the cantonal assembly of Glarus, a picturesque and mountainous area in Switzerland.

I’m very happy to welcome my first guest on the podcast, Pascal Vuichard, to discuss this direct democratic institution that served the people off the canton of Glarus since the year 1387, at least. The cantonal assembly, or also state assembly, is held once every year on the largest public square in the town of Glarus, where the entire population, eligible to vote from the age of 16 can take part. It’s a direct democratic, highly representative, deliberative and sovereign government institution. The assembly can make constitutional amendments, deliberate and decide on legislation, and approve the public budget. Every citizen has the right to speak and make proposals. The only other canton in Switzerland that also still uses this form of cantonal assembly is Appenzell Innerrhoden. Cantonal assemblies were held in many other cantons as well, some dating back to the year 1231. The canton assembly in German language, is called “Landsgemeinde”, which, literally translated, means the commune of the land. Two things that we have not mentioned in the discussion are that people actually swear an oath at the beginning of the assembly, and the vote by raising their hand into the air. 

My guest today, Pascal Vuichard, has taken part many times in this institution, both as a voter, a speaker and as a politician. So he’s the perfect person to talk to about this particular institution. Pascal is a member of the Green Liberal Party in Switzerland, where he built up the regional branch of the party in the canton of Glarus. And he was also the president of the National Youth Faction off the party. He was a member of the state parliament of the canton of Glarus and is now managing director of the Green Liberal Party in Glarus. A canton of the Swiss confederation is like a state in Nigeria or the U.S., even though Swiss cantons are much smaller. Pascal Vuichard holds a PhD in renewable energy management and is now a postdoc and program manager at the Institute for the Economy and Environment at the University of St. Gallen in Switzerland. You can find further information on Pascal’s projects on pascalvuichard.ch or on Twitter. I will link to both in the show notes.

I am your host, Stephan Kyburz, and this is the third episode in my new podcast the “Rules of the Game”, where I analyze and compare democratic institutions from around the world. I am a political economist with a PhD in economics from the University of Bern in Switzerland, and I previously held positions at the London School of Economics and Political Science and the Center for Global Development. Please subscribe and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform, and you’ll always get the latest episode. You can find me on Twitter at skyburz and you can find show notes with links to all material discussed on my website rulesofthegame.blog. Now, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Pascal Vuichard. 

Stephan Kyburz: I welcome everyone to the Rules of the Game podcast, and today my guest is Pascal Vuichard, a friend of mine who I met in Switzerland, and we were actually also working for a political organization, like a think tank. So Pascal, welcome to the Rules of the Game podcast. 

Pascal Vuichard: Thanks a lot for having me, I am looking forward to it. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, thanks. It’s great to have you. And you are actually my first guest, so that is pretty cool. And I feel honored to have you. Before talking about the cantonal assembly of Glarus, which we’re gonna discuss as a very localized political institution, I just wanna kind of give people a more personal introduction to your political activities. And so I have a few questions that we can start with, and then we’re gonna continue talking about the cantonal assembly, which is quite an interesting democratic institution. So what is your first memory of democracy? 

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, good question. I think it also links actually to the “Landsgemeinde”, the cantonal assembly, which we’re gonna talk about in a few minutes. Our father used to take me, my brother, my sister, to the procession which takes place before the cantonal assembly. So that’s where, for example, federal members of the parliament judges, also the members of the cantonal or the state parliament actually kind of walk from city hall to the big square. And the reason why our father took us there is that because my mom got elected into the cantonal parliament, I was still very small, but I already felt like it’s something special. Big things are gonna be decided here by many people. So that’s my first memory, already connected to what we’re gonna talk about. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay that’s actually that’s super cool And also you felt as a kid already that your mom was actually taking part in it, and taking an important role there, right?

Pascal Vuichard: Yes, it is special. Like there’s thousands of people alongside the road, right? They usually are clapping for our members of parliament. And then my mom, of course, she quickly, laughed [smiled] at us, or kind of waved at us. And that was for us, of course, very special. We didn’t talk about it that much because we were still young, right? But we felt that it’s like something, let’s say political. We’re gonna be or, let’s let’s say my dad is gonna vote, that my mom is gonna be sitting there. And us kids, we were allowed to sit also in the midst of the big square, just listening, of course, but we were able yet to grasp some of that special event.

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, that sounds very, very cool. And at what age did you, like, start becoming politically active. And in what role was that? 

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, I think, it depends a little bit on how we define politically active, right? I mean, if it means kind of deciding or taking part in the cantonal assembly which was possible for me at the age of 18, I think from then onwards I was always participating in the event, kind of adopting new laws or electing new members of the judiciary. If we look at it a bit more from a more active role, let’s say member of a political party, or actually being a member of parliament, I would say it’s starting at the age of 23. So that’s the time when friends of mine and myself, we founded our own political party, and embarked on our political journey in the state of Glarus.

Stephan Kyburz: So you just decided to build your own party. And what party was that? And maybe just to give a brief context, and then we’re gonna jump into that discussion of the institution. 

Pascal Vuichard: So it’s quite easy to found a party in Switzerland, right? So it’s not nothing very special. This party was called the Green Liberal Party, and at the time, that party didn’t exist yet in our state of Glarus. And we were, like, kind of fighting for our values, and we didn’t see ourselves in other parties which were already on place. So we were like, why not found our own party. Andi. Since then the party exists. And yeah, I was a member of that party in the Parliament. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, cool. So essentially you just got together with a few friends and said, like, let’s start a party. And then you did it and you got relevant in the political sphere. You’d say

Pascal Vuichard: Yes, I think I was elected with very good results, lately, so I think it’s still good to see that if you kind of fight for your ideas, people actually listen. They kind of give you confidence, and they kind of also want you to represent them in the parliament. And I think that’s something which is nice to see still, and yeah, I think it should be seen even more by also other young people. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, okay, cool. Alright, so let’s get to the discussion of the institution of the cantonal assembly. And in order to give people a kind of a context of that institution, I just want to briefly introduce it. And especially historically, it’s very, very interesting, because I would say it’s probably one of the oldest, if not the oldest direct democratic institution in the world, probably, that’s still existing and ongoing. So it was first mentioned in the year 1387. And this is the cantonal assembly of Glarus, where people come together once a year to discuss political issues, to approve or disapprove of laws, to elect members of the government and to give everyone a voice essentially, and that, which is pretty impressive, I think, was first mentioned in, as I said, in 1387. And as we know, I think it took place pretty much every year since then. Which is pretty incredible. Probably, there were a few years when it didn’t take place, right?

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, yeah. I mean, a good overview. I think what is also, of course, it’s an outside event, right? So it’s there is no roof over it, so people are standing outside. So it has been the case that it has been postponed. That’s a possibility, right? So it could, it can be postponed for a week or so, due to bad weather. That’s been the case for many, many years. And I remember two years ago when I was taking part as a member of parliament, it was snowing very heavily. And so it was on the edge of being postponed. But it took place anyway. So it has to be something very, very severe in order to not go through.

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, cool. And also to give maybe the context of Switzerland at that time. So, as maybe some of you know that the Swiss Confederation was founded in 1291 and that was first, so the confederation was pretty much a security alliance between three cantons in Switzerland, which are called the old cantons. And that was, kind of the beginning of the Swiss confederation at the beginning in a still very small and relatively simple agreement, and then in the year 1352, Canton Glarus and other Cantons, like Zurich joined that union, and the union was essentially to protect each other. So that was when the first cantonal assembly took place, or at least was recorded. That was already when Glarus was a member of the old Swiss Confederacy. Is that, that’s correct, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Stephan Kyburz: And so now let’s talk about the institution itself. So it’s essentially a legislative function. So laws are proposed to the cantonal assembly and people come together in the main square and vote on these proposals and just to give a bit of a picture still of the assembly. So the main event is held in, usually, the first Sunday in May, right? And so there are guests invited, like from the Swiss government, they are usually just kind of guests of honor. Then the military is there to protect the event, providing security and also being a symbol of independence, and really guarding the event from any unwelcome guests, I would say. And so who, maybe you can say about who takes part? Like who is the leader or who is guiding the event and also who is allowed to vote and and to take part? 

Pascal Vuichard: Sure, yes as mentioned, it’s taking place on the first Sunday of May. Then it’s opened by our governor, so the president of our cantonal government, and he officially opens the cantonal assembly, but he also presides the assembly and also determines the majority in elections or votes. And that’s something I think interesting and unique. There is no count off the vote, right? So it’s estimated, so whenever it’s close, there might be a second kind of vote, looking again, what are the majorities here? Where does it lie? And then the government has the final say, he says, either that side or that side is bigger. And then we pass on to the to the next bill. Basically, that’s how it is run. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, I see. And just to give a bit more context, there is actually a parliament like a legislative body, right, that is, kind of, the representative part of the cantonal legislature. And then you have this direct democratic people’s assembly, essentially, to confirm what the representative body proposes, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: Exactly, true, Yes, so the cantonal parliament in that sense is preparing, and is debating over different proposed laws, or other elements, and then the cantonal assembly, which is the highest body in our political system, has the final say, and decides either to approve or disapprove, or to reject or to kind of postpone. And I think one very unique other element which we didn’t talk about yet, is that the cantonal assembly cannot only say yes or no or reject, they can also amend. And I think that’s crucial to our cantonal assembly. So one individual person can stand up, speak and amend a proposed law which has been kind of, yeah, discussed in the cantonal parliament, which is then put to vote in our cantonal assembly. And they can amend different parts of that bill. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, so they can essentially request to have a say so also what I think is very interesting, right? So anybody who wants to speak is allowed to speak, and anyone who wants to propose an amendment to a legislation is allowed to propose, right? So the people really have full control over the legislative process. And if the representative body is proposing something that people don’t like, they just vote it down, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: Absolutely. So it’s actually also, I would say, our cantonal parliament, which which I was a member from, is, let’s say, in that sense, the weakest parliament in the whole of Switzerland because we don’t have the final say on laws as it is the case in in other parliaments. And also we always have to keep in mind that of course we cannot propose anything we want directly. We have to have it passed by the cantonal assembly. And I think that’s kind of a unique interplay between those two elements, right? 

Stephan Kyburz: And also what I think is an interesting element is that, as I read, is that when the discussion is opened, then they say in Swiss German what is called “S’Wort isch frii”, which means the discussion is open, or that the word is given to the assembly, essentially, and anybody can can speak up. I think that’s quite an interesting, or yeah, nice as symbology to really say, the discussion is now opened and, you know, like whatever you want to say, like now it’s the time to say it right? 

Pascal Vuichard: Absolutely true. And I think it’s also kind of, very important, but also nice to see that everybody is accepted to speak, right? So there is no let’s say, applause. There is no shouting in between, of those people who want to amend something. It’s really, we evaluate very highly that everybody has the right to speak. And I think that’s one element which is why we still have this kind of assembly, right? So the procedures are very clear, and it’s a very civilized way to discuss as well right. 

Stephan Kyburz: So, yeah, so people are kind of very well behaved during the procession, essentially. 

Pascal Kyburz: Right, we have to, otherwise it wouldn’t work right, and I think what we see and it also, in the past years, it’s always been kept like this, even though we had different movements of, maybe fake news, et cetera, right? So a bit of a more polarized world. I think we cannot observe that in our cantonal assembly. So it’s still very well behaved, everybody likes it. And I think that’s also one key, why we still have it. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, so people are really owning it right there, really there, and, you know, like, taking pride also of taking part. And I think maybe, just to give a bit of an overview what people actually can vote on and the election, so the chief magistrate or the head of state of the government is elected during the cantonal assembly, right? So that’s kind of the first item on the list of what’s happening during these hours, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: True, exactly. There’s not as many elections anymore during the canton assembly, there used to be more, but the head of state is one of them. Then kind of the vice head of state is also being elected by our cantonal assembly, and then also all the positions in our judiciary are being elected on that big square by those usually 7- to 8000 people, which kind of take part in those cantonal assemblies. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, so we didn’t mention that, yes, so the canton of Glarus, how many people are living there? 

Pascal Vuichard: Yes, true, important. Eventually, it’s rather small, right? So we usually have 40,000 inhabitants. Out of those, 40,000 around 27,000 are entitled to vote. So everybody who is a Swiss citizen living in the canon of Glarus above the age of 16 has the right to vote. And then out of those 27’000, usually between 7 to 8000 people take part, which then equals around 25 to 30% off participation rate. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, And do you think that’s a good representation of the people? 

Pascal Vuichard: That’s an important question, right? If you look at other countries, you would say, no, it’s not, right? It’s well below the kind of 50% of people participating. Looking at Swiss democracy, I would say, and also looking at the canton of Glarus in particular, if we vote on federal issues, at the ballot, for example, then our participation rate is not higher than that 25 to 30%. So I would say it’s still a good representation, even though It’s taking place on a big square, right? I think we need those 7 to 8000 people. If it’s going to decrease even more than it is becoming a bigger risk. But so far the attendance has been steadily high. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, I also think like, you know, I mean, it’s not national issues, right? It’s local issues, so you know, some people might think, you know, that’s a bit less important, or it’s not as crucial, and then also, if something comes up that is really important to people, they are, they can get, they can go there and vote, right? So if suddenly something is on the agenda, which is crucial, then they, you know, they turn up and they vote, right? So there’s always this open door to change policy if they really want to. 

Pascal Vuichard: That’s true, right? Mobilization has been a key issue also in recent years for certain topics, right, and I think we see that it still works so people actually take their chance or opportunity, to amend or to put forward policy, and I think yeah, it’s been a successful element of our system for a very, very long time already, as you mentioned. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, and also I think, it’s important to say, is that the attentional assembly is approving off budget items. So any budget item above one million Swiss francs, that’s about one million U.S. Dollars, has to be approved, right? So these are big budget items or recurring budget items above 200,000. So really like important expenditures that the cantonal government wants to do, have to be explicitly approved every time.

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, I think that’s also what sets the boundaries, right? It’s kind of a tool also for the financial sustainability of our state. So it’s not possible to kind of spend, just spend money as much as we want in the parliament, right? So we can only spend below 1’000’000 of budget items or then below 200’000 of recurring financial distributions. And I think, yeah, it’s always also a lot of debate about the financial elements of those cantonal assemblies, and it’s been debated. One million is actually looking at the landscape, it’s quite low, right? So the people have a big say in terms also of financial elements. And it’s always been debated. Yeah, why? It’s a bit of, back and forth who should have more power, the people or the Parliament. And of course, the parliament thinks, you know, it would be easier, smoother to get some kind of big projects going if we would have more power. But then again, and the people say no way want to have that responsibility as well. It’s also a responsibility, of course. And so far it has worked out. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, because obviously, you know, any big expenditures will also have an effect on the tax rate, right? So people are always worried, obviously that the government is spending money that is not for, like, a useful purpose to them. And so obviously, this link between expenditures and tax is very, very direct in this setup. Also, I think in general, in Switzerland, because fiscal federalism is very strong. So just to give another kind of context, so in Switzerland, we have these three tiers of government, right, the federal government and the cantonal governments, and then the local governments. So even below this cantonal government with the cantonal assembly, there are like municipal assemblies, which also decide on tax and expenditure items. So people, I think, usually about two thirds of the tax that they pay is going to either the cantonal or the municipal level, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: At least, yes, true. And they have a big say on how it is distributed, 

Stephan Kyburz: Yes. So even, like, let’s say that the cantonal assembly and then the municipal municipal assembly, the people have direct say over what happens with the taxes they pay up to, like 70% of the taxes they pay, right? So that’s it’s a direct control. And also it has, as we know, like lead to, governments being quite restrictive with expenditures. But also they have to convince the people that, you know, if they want to build a new road, that it’s actually worthwhile to build it, or a new school. But if people think like, OK, they’re like, let’s say that’s more at the municipal level, but also, yeah, probably both, a bit cantonal and municipal. If a new school building is needed, then the people can decide to actually, you know, propose that and have it built, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: True, it’s both sides, right? And I think it is also really dependent on transparency, right? So it’s a lot about informing. Information is key. And that’s also kind of one part in this cantonal but also municipal assemblies. You receive quite a heavy document and before hand, kind of, listing all the bills, explaining the bills, showing advantages, disadvantages, et cetera, financial consequences. And I think, yeah, people need to be very well informed in order to also, if they want to amend something or if they want to change something, it requires the people to be very active in the political structure. And I think that’s yeah, it’s nice to see, at least from my point of view, that people still, kind of, take the time, inform themselves about the important bills and then, kind of, take their right to speak up and try to amend. 

Stephan Kyburz: And it’s also like really a balance between representative and direct democracy, right? So like voting on budget items, voting on legislative proposals. It’s really a strong check on the work of the parliamentarians, right? Which is, I think, quite rare in that direct way. So maybe, yeah, let’s talk also about some of the achievements. Like what were, like, you know, what was legislation or constitutional changes that really were kind of remarkable in historic context. Maybe you can, you can mention a few events or times when, really, the cantonal assembly got, like, some public attention across Switzerland, probably.

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, true, it’s always interesting to see, right, when we have our cantonal assembly, it’s one of the few times we’re in the national news as well. And then if we decide something, let’s say very progressive, then it goes also outside of Switzerland, and that’s been the case already several times I think the most famous ones are, kind of, one in back in the ages, there was kind of our factory act, which was decided upon 1848 and then also a second part in 1856. And among more recent one was the bill on the voting age of 16 to lower it from 18 to 16, which was decided on, debated on in 2007. And I think those two elements they show also very nicely the character of the cantonal assembly and how it is possible also to get a draft to come up with, very progressive ones, also in a state which is maybe a more conservative as ours is. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, so the factory law that was kind of the important legislation that, where the canton of Glarus, actually was a leader, right, across Switzerland. And so this was to protect the staff of newly built, well, newly built factories that were, like, built everywhere in the canton during the industrialization. That was pretty soon after the modern constitution in Switzerland was actually built in 1848. And just a few things that were included in the factory law were like health and safety of the workers, hygiene regulations to protect workers, there was, like, social security, postnatal social security for women, like when women gave birth, they suddenly had like, a social security. There were prohibitions of child labor under the age of 12. And then in successive years the prohibition of child labor was, the age was increased to 16 years, I think. And also the working hours were an important part of that legislation, right? So the maximum working hours per day were lowered over time. 

Pascal Vuichard: True, they were lowered to 12 hours per day for that time, that was quite a progressive step, right? Nowadays it’s of course lower. But, I think, what was very astonishing for that time also, that our factory law was kind of pushed through in 1856. Then the national factory law, so the one which kind of covered the whole of Switzerland only came into force 13 years later. So the canton of Glarus, a small mountain state was kind of lot of years ahead in the legislation and I think that was only possible because we had this system of the direct democracy with our cantonal assembly, because, as you mentioned before, the law which was kind of proposed to the cantonal assembly by the parliament, was never as progressive for that time, as it turned out to be in the end. So the people they made use of their right to amend to include several elements, which you mentioned before, which were not part of the bill when it came into the cantonal assembly. And that shows again, the cantonal assembly is something very important, also for the people to have a direct say. Otherwise we would have needed to wait maybe 13, 15 years longer to have such a progressive factory law for that time. 

Stephan Kyburz: Also, maybe we have to mention here, which is quite an important point, obviously, Switzerland on the other side was quite late with introducing women’s suffrage, right? So that was maybe also due to the direct democratic institutions because the whole or more than half of the population, of the male population at that time had to be convinced to approve women’s suffrage. So that’s why maybe it took quite a while. I will discuss that actually in another podcast, for sure, But just to be clear that when we are talking about that time, that was only the male population who was voting on these issues and, but I think it’s quite an interesting approval of legislation to protect workers, which was really during industrialization. So the people had a tool to protect themselves against the greedy behaviors of the manufacturing sector, of the corporate world, essentially, that tried to extract as much rents from, through like factories, right? So that’s, and to be able to have this, you know, really direct, say like, no, no, no, you know, you have to protect our works. That’s that’s quite remarkable, I think. And then another item was the introduction of voting age 16, which is still quite rare in Switzerland may be the canton of Glarus, I’m not sure, it’s still the only one who has, at least at the cantonal and municipal level, the voting age 16. So people aged 16 can can elect can vote, and can also run for office. Is that right?

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, they have the active voting, right? Not a passive. So they cannot run for office at the age of 16, but true, as you mentioned, it is still the only canton in Switzerland which has this active voting right of people aged above 16. And, yeah, it has been discussed in different cantons recently in Switzerland, but has never had the majority. Also, I would say more progressive states than the canton of Glarus, it never stood a chance. And I think also that’s the only reason why we have it is because of the council assembled. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, because people who were in the public square, wanted to have a progressive attitude, right? 

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, I think, actually, that was my first time being on the big square. That was the year I turned 18. So it was for me the first time being a member of the cantonal assembly, and I remember it very well. I think on the day, it was “raining cats and dogs”. It was cold, but somehow, something was in the air, right? You felt maybe we can be a pioneer again in the canton of Glarus. We want to show the world, or at least Switzerland, that we are also kind of moving forward, are being progressive people. And then on the square itself, of course, you saw that the young people, they prepared their speeches very well, so they had good arguments. They were confident, yeah, it was just very well prepared. And then you could actually feel something, I think you mentioned before as well, a kind of dynamic on the square, right? You could feel people go there not already convinced of, being either for or against a certain bill. They go there and they listen to the people, actually kind of putting forward their arguments, putting forward on what they want to change. And you could really feel after the third or fourth speaker. Oh, now it’s turning, now it’s turning. It used to be beforehand, everybody laughed at this voting age of 16, and then it somehow turned. Okay, more and more people were saying okay, yeah, they might have a good argument that makes sense actually. Also, after the cantonal assembly, we talked to some older people. They were actually saying, yeah, they actually thought they’re gonna be against it. But they had been persuaded by the young people, committed by their motivated speeches. I think that’s also something unique, right? So it’s not kind of party opinions. It’s really, you go there with an open mind and you listen to the arguments. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, right. And also, it was a fringe part of society. In a sense, the young people who never are heard really probably enough, and suddenly they brought up their arguments, like directly, and they could convince people within a few hours. And now probably everyone is happy, right with the legislation? 

Pascal Vuichard: Now it’s normal, right? So nobody is, nobody is discussing that anymore, even though it’s still unique on it shows. Yeah, it shows, actually, that it’s that it has been worthwhile to fight for it. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, and it’s very inclusionary, right? So, um, people like young people are included in the political process, like from a very young age. And they have to build their opinions and they can, you know, participate in whatever way they want, really. 

Pascal Vuichard: Yes, I think it’s also important because in Switzerland, kind of, mandatory school age ends at 16, right? But then the regular voting age only starts at 18, and you have kind of a two year gap in school. Of course, you learn about the political system, but then you have, you know in all of the states, you have to wait two years in order to kind of make your voice heard. And in our state, you can directly after school. You can go and decide your own future. And I think that’s something very important. And you can see it. Also, we have, let’s say lots of young people speaking at the cantonal assembly kind of trying to push forward their ideas. So it’s also, it’s a way of making your voice heard. 

Stephan Kyburz: But also it brings responsibility, because they also have to contribute to the decisions and to the building of opinions, right? Okay cool, let’s start to wrap up this discussion. I think it was It was very interesting for me to hear what, you know, your view is, your perspective. Even though I knew the cantonal assembly as a direct democratic institution, it’s always fascinating to hear more of the details, how it really works. And now I just wanna have a few final questions. Do you think the cantonal assembly will survive, like, will it have a future even though it’s kind of, you know people have to go to a square and it’s, you know, it’s quite an effort right. But do you think that will stay?

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, good question. I think, yes, I think it will stay. It has proven to be robust. And I think also the results despite only estimating the votes, right? So there is no final count, they are always accepted by the people. And it is also, I think, one of the few elements in today’s world which is perceived positively by everybody in our state. It, as you mentioned, unites us. It gives us a sense of being proud. And I see no reason why we should get rid of it, yes. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, makes perfect sense. And one final question: like if you could change one institution or law in Switzerland, what would that be? 

Pascal Vuichard: Good question, right? Being liberal. I’m always, of course, a bit anxious of new laws. But looking at what kind of law or policy we could amend, I think also looking at the cantonal assembly, there is actually a law that says you cannot take part in the cantonal assembly if you take or carry your baby with you, right? So, a very, very small baby, it’s not allowed on the cantonal assembly. And I think this is very old fashioned. I wanna go on the square with my baby, or,  take our baby with me. And I think it’s also time to be more progressive here. And that would be something I would change. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah. It will also give more weight to families, right? And women’s, you know, kind of, partake in the assembly. Essentially, so that would be an important symbol.

Pascal Vuichard: Yeah, well, to have the families there really would make it even more equal. Right? But that’s still I think it is something small, but could have a significant impact. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah. All right. I think we will stop here. Thanks a lot for the very interesting discussion, and, yeah, maybe at some point, we could do a follow up. There are definitely lots of things to discuss. And so I really appreciate you taking the time and thanks a lot, Pascal, for being my first guest on the Rules of the Game Podcast. 

Pascal Vuichard: No, it’s an honor. It’s in honor. Of course. Thanks a lot for having me and looking forward to your next discussions too, listen to them and wish you best of success. 

Stephan Kyburz: Thank you.