Current Developments of Direct Democracy in Germany

Full Transcript:

Introduction: 

Hello and welcome to the Rules of the Game podcast, where it is my job to discuss and compare democratic institutions.

With Jan Renner I discuss current developments of direct democracy in Germany, and especially in Bavaria, his home state. Bavaria is the most advanced German federal state when it comes to direct democracy. Jan explains the specific tools that are available and how Mehr Demokratie, the organization he is working for, tries to change the rules of direct democracy to make citizen participation and decision making easier and better. He shares with us the strategies they pursue and obstacles they face. 

One of the huge success stories was the popular petition called “Save the Bees!” to protect biodiversity in Bavaria. This initiative garnered a record of 1.8 million signatures of citizens and became law in 2019, approved by the Bavarian parliament upon huge pressure from the people.

As Germany is indeed a vibrant direct democracy at the communal and regional level, we talk about developments of direct democracy in the various German states, and how he sees the role of citizens’ assemblies as a tool to push for more direct democracy and improving deliberation in society.

Germany is still the only EU country that has not yet seen a nationwide referendum. We dig into the historical reasons for this fact and what the current opinions, options and pushbacks are for direct democracy at the federal level.  

Jan Renner is the executive director of Mehr Demokratie (more democracy) in Bavaria. What I love about his story is how he became a young activist for direct democracy when he joined protest movements that made him more aware of what is wrong with the political system and so he joined the organization for more democracy and climbed its ranks. Jan studied Political Science, Sociology and History in Augsburg and Oslo. 

I am your host, Stephan Kyburz, and this is the thirty-third episode of The Rules of the Game podcast. I am a political economist with a PhD in Economics from the University of Bern in Switzerland. And I previously held positions at the London School of Economics and Political Science and the Center for Global Development.

You find a full transcript of this episode on my website rulesofthegame.blog. I am always curious to hear your opinion, so please send me an email to [email protected]. A great way to support my podcast is to leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. So if you want to do me a favor please rate the podcast on your favored platform. If you find my discussions interesting and you’d like to support my work, consider buying me a coffee at buymeacoffee.com and you find the link to it on my website rulesofthegame.blog. 

Please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Jan Renner.  

Discussion:

Stephan Kyburz: Jan Renner, welcome to the Rules of the Game podcast, it’s great to have you on the show. 

Jan Renner: Thanks for having me Stephan. Thank you so much.

Stephan Kyburz: So what is your first memory of democracy?  

Jan Renner: My first memory of democracy… I think I would have to say the very first memory I have or that comes to mind is actually accompanying my parents when they went to the electoral booth, back in the days when there was an election coming up or actually on election day, basically on a sunday, I would always come with them to the local restaurant in my very, very small village. It’s basically the center of the village. And yeah, there basically the entire village would meet up and people would just go into the electoral booths, vote and then come out of the booth, talk about it and have like a very interesting dynamic going on in this particular village. And I remember as a little child coming with them being like, well, that’s, that’s interesting. And of course, I didn’t really know, I wasn’t able to comprehend this, the sphere of what was happening, right? But nevertheless, I think it was just interesting to see what’s happening there. It seemed so important in a way without really knowing what exactly it meant. But I think that was something that really struck me the sense of importance and how this local restaurant just turned or transformed for this particular day into like a voting center. And so I remember that was really interesting from a visitor point of view or from somebody who can only take part in it by experiencing it and not really actively engaging with it. I think in that regard, when it comes to really actively practicing democracy, my first experience of my first memory was electing class representatives in school. I guess that’s a very, very basic form of democratic participation. And maybe in that moment I wasn’t really aware that this can be seen in like a really democratic point of view. But nevertheless, then again, it felt like important to vote for somebody. So that was my first memories voting myself and watching my parents vote.

Stephan Kyburz: Actually, I had similar memories of going with my parents to the voting booth, which was in, in our case it was at the school, you know, it was my primary school that turned into an election center on the weekends. And I also remember that it was something, you know, important that my parents went there and I remember how they put the ballot in the box. You know, like old school. Today I think mostly we have mail in ballots so we can vote and elect via mail, which is much simpler and quite convenient actually. 

Jan Renner: And also maybe to add on that just quickly. I also always found really fascinating to then when we went home after the electoral process, so to speak to then turn on the television and see the tv programs about the polls coming in and politicians from various parties analyzing the result of it and me kind of knowing that what my parents did in the morning had somehow an impact on what these people were talking on television later on. So that was really fascinating to me. 

Stephan Kyburz: And did your parents also already have direct democratic decisions that they were participating in at the local level? 

Jan Renner: I’m quite sure they had. I don’t remember one in particular but we’re going to talk about this later on. I grew up in the state of Bavaria and there it’s quite common to vote on local referendums and use direct democracy or to partake in it. And so I’m quite sure that they voted on some direct democratic initiative but I can’t remember one in particular. But I’m quite sure they did.

Stephan Kyburz: In your bio you write that you demonstrated against the introduction of EU free trade agreements and that was something where you became really political active. Can you maybe share that activation, I would say, with us? 

Jan Renner: Yeah I remember back when I was I don’t know, 15, 16 I think, that’s kind of when it started. That’s when also a treaty called ACTA – A. C. T. A. I had to look it up. Anti-counterfeiting Trade Agreement. That’s when the ACTA treaty was widely discussed and I remember that back in the days I was very much into video games and being active in the internet sphere. Back then it was a huge discussion on, hey, does ACTA mean that we’re going to have limited ways of expressing ourselves on the internet? Are multinational companies now able to just cut short our internet in a way? That was the big selling point against ACTA. And that’s what kind of motivated me to go out on the streets and really protest this lack of… And also then I wasn’t really aware of this at the ACTA protest but then later on in the CETA or TISA demonstrations that these EU trade agreements, they are not really designed for us to partake in them, to even have a say against them. Because some of them were EU only so nobody really knew who was involved in actually discussing about or negotiating these trade agreements which have huge impacts on our daily lives. And that’s when I really noticed, hey, I do want to have a say in this, or at least I want to know who’s involved in this. I want to maybe elect those people who then negotiate in my favor in these agreements or in these negotiations. So that was really a big moment for me where I realized, hey, we as people, we should have a say in especially these major major topics. And that’s why it really kind of politicized me. I also was very much aware of the lack of transparency that these processes had, these trade agreement negotiation processes involved. And yeah, I got kind of angry during this president, funnily enough, this is where I met, this is where I came across Mehr Demokratie, the organization that I’m now working for, because they were also especially in around 2015, 2016, they were very active in the CETA or TISA talks and campaigning. So that’s how I got involved with them. 

Stephan Kyburz: And you are now the executive director of the Bavaria branch of the organization. So the organization is called Mehr Demokratie, which is (more democracy) and it’s a German wide association and they have different branches in different states and you are in Bavaria. Can you maybe talk a bit about your work and a bit about the organization, What you’re doing and what you’re trying to achieve? Maybe both at the sub-national and the national level. 

Jan Renner: So Mehr Demokratie has been around for 30 plus years and it really started as a grassroots organization, I would say. Just some, some people who were motivated by the idea of participating on the national level of actually establishing something like a nationwide referendum, which to this day is not established in Germany, which is still the main goal of Mehr Demokratie. Is to actually work towards achieving this goal. But why are these people 30 years ago? Well they realized, OK, maybe getting this nationwide referendum is not then necessarily the next step, we should take smaller steps in order to get there. So why not start at the communal level and see how can we establish direct democracy there, gather some experiences which then further help us to in the future, actually establish the nationwide referendum. And this is then how Mehr Demokratie kinda  got formed. Starting really at the local level, trying to establish direct democracy all over Germany on the communal level, which at this point is the case in all 16 federal states of Germany. You as the people living in the village can now actually use direct democracy to change certain laws in that village. So direct democracy on the communal level and also on the sub-national level is possible in every single German state, which is also one achievement of Mehr Demokratie.

Stephan Kyburz: Mehr Demokratie is the main organization that is driving this push for more direct democracy?

Jan Renner: Yes, and I would say, also that we do like two fold work. And because on the one hand we are pushing for legislation, so we are drafting laws, we also lobby with politicians in order to improve the regulations for direct democracy in all the german states. So that’s one big chunk of what we do for direct democracy. But on the other hand Mehr Demokratie is the only body which advises local citizen initiatives. So, we… If you want to start a citizen initiative, say in the state of Bavaria, you can call us, we will give you all the advice you need, whether that’s legal advice, campaigning advice, but maybe also on how you should structure your campaign. So that’s really especially here in Bavaria, that is one of the main things we do is to really give advice to those initiatives and how to set up their campaign. Because as much as direct democracy is for the people, it’s actually at times quite difficult to use because you need to really take care of some regulations. There’s some phrases that you need to be aware of, that need to be put into the law and stuff like that. It can be quite complicated to be honest. And hence this is why we are there to help those initiatives. 

Stephan Kyburz: I was actually surprised when I read a bit more on the case in Bavaria, like the procedure that you have, the institution itself, the process of direct democracy. I’m used to, you know, people collecting signatures and this will cause a vote or either in an initiative or referendum, right? That’s kind of how I know it from Switzerland. But in Bavaria, you have like a three step. First people collect signatures and that will bring the proposal to the parliament and then people have to go to the local administration to sign. Maybe you say something about this process and is that something you try to improve or is that meaningful in that sense? The three steps?

Jan Renner: You’re right. In Bavaria, we have a three step system. Unlike, as you just mentioned, for instance, in Switzerland and in the very first step, if we’re talking about statewide initiatives, an initiative needs to collect 25,000 signatures to the minimum. And what they then do is they hand it over to the ministry and the ministry will then check if the content of this initiative violates the law through this process. You can actually prohibit things that I think are not possible in Switzerland or are possible in Switzerland, that you could actually, with the citizen initiative, do something against minorities or actually that that violates minority rule. And this, for instance, is not possible in Germany or even in that particular case in Bavaria, because the ministry, at a very early point in this entire direct democratic process, checks whether this actually… this initiative violates the law or not. So this is why you have the very first step. If the ministry then actually checks and says, alright, this initiative is all good to go, then the second phase comes which is the actual citizen initiative. And what the second step is, one million people in Bavaria need to, as you just mentioned, need to go to their local administrations in order to sign these initiatives within 14 days. So, that’s quite a huge threshold to be honest. Not many initiatives actually managed to pass this threshold and only after this one million people, the minimum sign up for this initiatives, then it gets to the parliament and then the parliament can decide whether they want to accept it or whether to deny it and when they deny it, you will have a vote on this particular initiative. And so that’s the three step model. 

Stephan Kyburz: Only when the parliament rejects it, then the people still have the chance to actually enact it by voting yes, right?

Jan Renner: Exactly. 

Stephan Kyburz: But the threshold is like 10%. So 10% of the electorate needs to go to the local administration and sign. That seems like a very high hurdle. And I think that’s also the reason why you don’t have so many proposals coming through, right? 

Jan Renner: Absolutely. That is a major major hurdle and you need a really big alliance in a way in order to pass this hurdle. And that’s yes, you said that’s why only a few initiatives actually get to this point or even further because this hurdle is quite high. And we, as Mehr Demokratie, we are actively trying to reduce this hurdle to say 7%, maybe even 5% but at least to lower it a bit in order to enhance the possibility for people to use direct democracy in the way that it’s meant to be. As a way for citizens to actually put political agendas on the map.

Stephan Kyburz: Do you also know something like a referendum where parliament implements a law and then you collect signatures to stop the law, to provoke a public vote on it?

Jan Renner: You’re basically referring to the facultative referendum, is that the term in Switzerland?

Stephan Kyburz: Exactly. That’s it. 

Jan Renner: No, unfortunately, at least in the state of Bavaria, we don’t have this. I think in Saxony, which is a different state from Bavaria, they are looking into it and are thinking about implementing it. But in Bavaria we do not have this option. But this would be something that could greatly help I think direct democracy in Bavaria as well. And that’s something that we are advocating for as well, because we believe that this is quite a good instrument on having the people engaging with politicians and also for politicians. I think they will draft laws differently or act differently, do different policies when they know that the people then have the chance to revoke their decision.

Stephan Kyburz: Exactly. I think that’s a very important mechanism that often is not paid enough attention to, you know, that politicians draft legislation differently if they know that people can reject the whole legislation. 

Jan Renner: Absolutely. 

Stephan Kyburz: Each state in Germany, they have their own type of direct democracy. You say all the states have some form. What states are, like in your view, the most advanced? And what are kind of success stories that you could tell?

Jan Renner: That’s not because I’m biased since I am living in Bavaria and working for the Bavarian branch, but actually Bavaria is one of the maybe the most advanced states within Germany when it comes to direct democracy. Roughly 40% of all direct democratic activity happening in Germany is located in Bavaria and most of that is actually located on the communal sphere on the communal level. And that is the reason why that is,  in 1995 the Bavarians themselves actually used direct democracy, used the three step model that we just described in order to implement direct democracy on the communal level. So the rules and regulations we have for direct democracy in the communal level are designed by the citizens themselves, which is the reason why they are compared to other states in Germany, kind of user friendly, if you will. Why the hurdles are somewhat lower than in other states or also why there are hardly any themes or topics you are not allowed to use in a referendum on the communal level. In Bavaria there’s like a rule of thumb where any theme or any topic that can be discussed in a city hall is also eligible for a citizen initiative to cover, which is definitely not the case in other states of Germany. Whether it’s quite exclusive topics that you are allowed to touch upon with the citizen initiative while others you are not allowed to use. So in Bavaria you’re basically open to use direct democracy in, I would say almost anything you like on the communal level. Of course there are some, then some regulations come into play as I mentioned before. How is that a particular question that you’re raising signatures or you’re collecting signatures for. It needs to be phrased in a particular way and of course, once the ink is dried on a contract, it’s kind of difficult to use direct democracy against it. But still in all of the processes before that you are free to use direct democracy in Bavaria on the communal level. Especially, also that is an exception for Bavaria, especially in terms of communal construction plans, which is always a very, very hot topic in communes and in villages and Bavaria you’re allowed to basically use direct democracy and in almost any phase of a communal construction plan. Whereas in other states, communal construction plans are completely excluded from direct democratic interaction. That’s why Bavaria in itself is or has been a front-runner in terms of direct democracy in Germany. Other states are taking huge steps as well. For instance, Thuringia which is in the eastern part of Germany, they are really getting along and catching up. But you also and now I finally addressed the second part of your question, you are also interested in good examples of direct democracy and one of the most recent ones, especially in Bavaria is one, a statewide initiative that was in 2019. It’s called Save the Bees, that’s the abbreviation for it or the title that has been claimed. And the aim of this initiative was really to secure the development of biodiversity in flora and fauna in Bavaria because the people were seeing that the state government wasn’t really paying attention all too much in that regard. And so this initiative, yeah set up to change that and to really put it on the agenda of the state government. And we were discussing earlier the high hurdle in the second step of the citizen initiative process, where you actually need to collect one million signatures in the span of 14 days, this Save the Bees campaign was able to get 1.8 million people. So almost double if you will during the span of 14 days to go to their local administrations and sign up for this initiative which was by far the most popular citizen initiative in the state of Bavaria to date. And the state government didn’t even want to actually let it pass to a vote because they actually saw that there’s so much power behind this initiative. So many people are in favor of this initiative that the state government then basically gave in, in a way. And now we have this Save the Bees law. 

Stephan Kyburz: So the parliament felt the pressure from 1.8 million signatures. How many people live in Bavaria?

Jan Renner: In Bavaria there are 13 million people and around about 10 million eligible to vote. 

Stephan Kyburz: Okay, so that’s really like a lot of votes. Because comparing again to Switzerland, we have to collect 100,000 signatures within 18 months to cause an initiative to be successfully submitted and we are still, we are like 8.5 million. We have, you know, the electorate but it’s still like this hurdle is huge, right? Is there anything in the process going on where you are trying to change that hurdle, where you feel it could work? 

Jan Renner: Yeah. So interestingly enough, next year, in 2023 we have state elections in Bavaria. So this as an NGO, as an organization, obviously that’s one of the highlights and only so often do you get the chance to really get politicians to commit to change, right? And so we are now in the phase of actively trying to come up with new ideas to really improve, especially this ,the second step, the one million signatures collecting phase and we are now more and more looking into e-collecting. I know that’s also a very touchy and hot topic but we are really looking into it because we do think that this could be a chance to improve the chances of initiatives when it comes to collecting signatures, maybe not only in the second step, but also in the first step where they need to collect at least 25,000 signatures. And so we are more and more looking into that, talking to administrations about that. Because also if you think about it then one million signatures if you do it just in your local administrations, these administrations then via mail need to send these papers back and forth all the way which is also not really ideal in terms of administrative work. And these people are also paid to do something else rather than just you know, sending paper through the entire state. And also there needs to be, right now there needs to be obviously one human to really check whether this person is eligible to sign this initiative. And this doesn’t really compare because the state of Berlin, Berlin is not only the capital but it’s also its own state. And in the state of Berlin of course you can also do citizen initiatives and direct democratic votes and in 2021 they had a very interesting referendum there, prior to this. They of course had a citizen initiative as well and that was to expropriate huge companies that are owning private housing in Berlin. So it’s the expropriation of, especially, one company called Deutsche Wohnen. And for this initiative, they actually found out that in order to collect 280,000 signatures it cost the administration around 500,000 euros. So that’s the amount of money that is being spent on administrations checking whether these people are actually eligible to sign this initiative etc. And now if you think about how easy it would be if you had any e-collecting there wouldn’t be hardly any costs, no personnel would be needed or hardly any personnel would be needed in order to really check these signatures. And it’s also just a matter of seconds rather than weeks. I know in terms of safety and security, there’s also some issues there, but we are now in the face of really trying to come up with ideas and concepts on how to improve that. And also then how to basically lower the hurdle if you will for the one million signatures. And in other states we are having or we are seeing the first steps in this regard. For instance, the state of Schleswig-Holstein, which is in the very northern part of Germany bordering Denmark, well, they are now in the process of implementing ways how you can collect signatures digitally and then maybe have them transferred to a citizen initiative. So, yeah, this is basically what we are now working towards in terms of the second step for the citizen initiatives, on statewide direct democratic initiatives. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, digitalization seems to be more like a matter of time, right? So it will come I think eventually because yeah, you could save so much money. But obviously the trust and the security is super important because you don’t want to have a process that people don’t really trust. And because then it’s having more harm than doing good. Do you on the other side also put pressure on political parties to include direct democratic rule changes in their campaign promises before elections?

Jan Renner: Yes, that’s what we do. We actively seek people, seek politicians who are basically in these commissions or who are the ones in their political parties and their factions who are able to speak on these matters and lobbying with them. Even in non electoral periods we lobby. But also of course, especially in pre-election phases, we actively go towards these people and advise them or tell them, especially also from our experiences, right? As we are the only ones, especially in Bavaria, we are, Mehr Demokratie is the only body, the only organization that has direct contact to citizen initiatives or to most of them. At least almost all of them. I would say whether that’s statewide level or communal level, we are the only ones collecting data. Even the Ministry of Interior Affairs in Bavaria, they don’t have the numbers on how many citizen initiatives, whether on communal or on a statewide level there actually are in Bavaria. They’re always asking us because we are the ones who take notes, store that data and collect the data. And so from this experience and with this wealth of data, I think we can quite convincingly tell politicians why we think certain hurdles are too high or how you can actually improve on certain regulations. And maybe just at this point because this is something that’s coming up in the political activism scene, but also in the direct democratic scene I’m noticing, is the question of citizen assemblies. We as Mehr Demokratie, we took part in the Global Forum on Modern Direct Democracy which took place in Lucerne in September.

Stephan Kyburz: I was there actually.

Jan Renner: Oh, really?

Stephan Kyburz: We haven’t met. But…

Jan Renner: No, yeah. That’s interesting. Cool. I mean maybe it would be interesting to hear your perspective on this, but I gathered or at least I really was surprised on this conference, that was so, at least from my point of view, that was so focused obviously on direct democracy, how often we were talking about citizen assemblies and how you can maybe enrich the process of direct democracy through an instrument like a citizen assembly. How more dialogue or deliberative democracy, how these processes can be intertwined with direct democratic instruments. And this is just to now get back to my initial point, this is something that we also want to stress to politicians in this upcoming electoral phase, is to really think about improving direct democratic structures by making way also for a citizen assembly prior to a referendum. Or and to maybe have through direct democracy, through a citizen initiative, be able to implement, to establish a citizen assembly on a certain topic. So one main point for us will really be to yeah, I guess talk to politicians about the possibilities that the combination of these two instruments, direct democracy and citizen assemblies, how this can help democracy and politics further on.

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, my opinion on citizens assemblies is two fold. On the one side I think they can have a supporting role in the sense that the deliberation is important and they could maybe, also an instrument in Switzerland prior to popular votes to have a forum of deliberation. But this for me would only really work if the content and the deliberation would also be available to the rest of society. So I think Swiss society is quite politicized, so there are so many instruments where people can actually engage and to become like also active in political parties. You know, the hurdles are quite low I would say. So for me citizens ‘ assembly, because they are based on sortition, the people have to be kind of hoping that they are selected in a way to actually deliberate. And for me that’s kind of a bit controversial with the principle of democracy where if you have great ideas, if you want to participate, just go and do it. You know, that’s kind of my approach. That’s why I think the role for citizens assemblies to me seems, like, rather limited and I feel it’s much more important to have a lot of direct democratic decisions. I would rather see that than seeing more citizens assemblies. That’s my personal opinion. 

Jan Renner: Yeah, I mean I’m not saying that citizen assemblies are the solution to every problem we have. Also problems or hurdles with direct democracy. It’s just that very often we also as an NGO advocating for more direct democracy that the claim is always there. Yeah. But in the end, direct democratic decisions are always based on yes or no questions. And I think in order to kind of go against this claim, you could say well, but if you put a citizen assembly prior to the vote, you actually have a lot of discussion that then of course in the end it leads to a yes or no decision. But there’s so much more deliberation prior to this that it’s actually, it’s not an issue of yes or no in the end anymore. It’s really… You can also produce alternatives, right? If you have a citizen assembly and then there’s a popular vote afterwards, why not have three decisions to vote upon instead of just one in the end. So I think it does help or it could potentially help the entire process of direct democracy if you put citizen assemblies prior to this. And also maybe just to add to this from a more like strategic point of view, in Bavaria direct democracy really functions well. People are aware of it. As I said, roughly 40% of all direct democratic initiatives are happening in the area. But on the national level, nobody or hardly anyone really talks about direct democracy. Currently Brexit was a major step back. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, sadly enough. 

Jan Renner: Yeah, Yeah, exactly. And then also we have a right wing party in the National Parliament since 2017, I believe, who are also yes, spreading false information on the use of direct democracy as well and false hopes. And all of this leads to an atmosphere of very much denial of the chances of direct democracy on the national level. However, almost every major party in Germany is very much in favor of citizen assemblies. This is something they think can really enrich politics on the national level. And now for us as an NGO, trying to advocate for direct democracy, being able to talk to politicians on the national level on all levels really, but now, especially on the national level to talk with them about citizen assemblies opens up new opportunities for us to also introduce the idea of direct democracy. Because in the end all these discussions about citizen assemblies come to the question well, but in the end it’s only recommendations, right? What’s the sense of this? And then you can actually say, well, if we see, if we had a nationwide referendum, then the claim that citizen assemblies only recommend is basically… It’s not valid anymore. Because, you know that people then through a nationwide referendum could also vote on these recommendations. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, I mean, if people through Citizens Assembly realize that they want to have more democracy, I mean, I would totally be in favor of that. I think the citizens’ assemblies in a way are limited in power while direct democracy is very powerful and that’s why it’s so important to talk about the rules and you know, how you implement direct democracy. In most places, where direct democracy is used regularly and you know, in a systematic way, most people I think are in favor of it. But it depends on how you implement ir. Like in California, for example, there, you know, they have a lot of proposals, ballot proposals and and people are kind of overwhelmed and then they think that doesn’t make sense. Or at least some, you know, I don’t know the situation in detail. But that’s kind of my perception of it.

Jan Renner: Interestingly enough, by the way polls in Germany since I guess the mid 70’s show that the majority of the German population is also in favor of the nationwide referendum. But so we, through various reasons, we are not there yet. Hopefully we will get there. As I said, currently, it’s not really looking that bright because also the Green Party who for basically since its inception, also in the mid 70’s, late 70’s, I believe they stated that they were definitely in favor of the nationwide referendum. However, then in 2020, end of 2020 they decided to actually get rid of that claim and we hosted a discussion between two Green Party politicians. One was very much in favor who’s also from Bavaria, who is very much in favor of the Green Party still advocating for the nationwide referendum and a one major Green politician who was against the Greens still wanting the nationwide referendum. And his arguments were just the same as I mentioned before, Brexit, like the right wing party populists claims and stuff like that. And as you said, I think it all comes down to, how do you design the rules? What are the regulations? If you regulate this instrument in a way that populists will not be able to just misuse it as they did in Britain, then this can be very much enhancing rather than threatening democracy. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, exactly, it’s super important. And one problem with the Brexit vote was definitely that it was top down. That it was used by politicians for their own, I mean by David Cameron for his own agenda and he obviously hoped that people would say no, that they… People wanted to stay in the European Union. But his gamble didn’t really go his way. And yeah, I think in Germany that the great thing is that at the state level you have a lot of direct democracy, there’s a lot of experimentation and I think it’s important for the people to understand how it works even before maybe it comes to the national level, right? And so let’s talk a bit more about the national level since Germany had like two, I would say, opportunities, and correct me if I’m wrong to implement direct democracy. One was after World War II when there was a new, basically a new constitution written. And then in 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell and Germany was reunified, that was kind of a second opportunity. And there are actually two possibilities for a national popular vote, right? One would be a change in the constitution or an overall change in the constitution and the other one would be territorial changes. Can you maybe say something about these two options? And also, maybe historically, you know, what happened that Germany did not end up using direct democracy more often at the national level?

Jan Renner: I actually don’t know too much about these two options. But I do know that Germany is the only EU member state that so far has not seen a nationwide referendum. And as you said, there were maybe two opportunities to actually introduce that. But after World War II, I very much believe that the fear that also the interwar period in Germany, the so called Weimar Republic, there was a fear after World War II that you would still have sort of unstable political coalitions and very much, you know, just political upheaval and stuff like that. Which actually, if you look at it, the Weimar era, so the interwar period, the Weimar Republic, they weren’t, there were hardly any referendum or initiative. But still people were thinking, oh, this was the reason why the Nazis then came to power in the early 1930’s. Which if you look at it, it’s not really, that wasn’t really the fault of direct democratic initiatives or the possibility of direct democracy. But still it was very much linked to that idea. And then after the war, starting from the mid 40’s, up until like, I guess, 70’s, 80’s, it was really about regaining trust in democracy itself and state institutions and democratic institutions. I do think that that was the main focus and that’s why during that time, at least hardly anyone said we would need a nationwide referendum, there was no real action towards or movement towards that idea.

Stephan Kyburz: And Germany did really well, right? In terms of democracy. In terms of representative democracy, I mean, the system became very, very stable and also successful in… I would say overall. Obviously there is always a question about inequality, etc, but overall, in economic terms.

Jan Renner: Absolutely, that’s absolutely right. And maybe also why or because Germany did so well in economic terms, nobody or hardly anyone really felt the necessity to go against in brackets, but to really push for a referendum nationwide, because they, most of them were somewhat happy with how things were in Germany during that time. But then maybe in the late 70’s, early 80’s when protest movement really began, I mean, in Western Germany, but also in particular in the eastern part of Germany and that’s I think when claims for nationwide referendums really came about and grew stronger in Germany. As I said, the polls during that time, also then showed that starting from then up until now, most of the majority of the Germans are actually in favor of establishing the nationwide referendum. And yeah, then after the fall of the Berlin Wall, there was a second opportunity, as you said. So the Commission for the reunification of Germany, and there wasn’t a constitutional commission that tried to figure out how to actually reunite these two countries. And this commission, they were actually in favor of setting up a nationwide referendum for the then reunified Germany. However, this claim didn’t make it past the two third majority rule in the German parliament back then. So that’s why during that time it didn’t happen. But this was a major, major push for them trying to establish direct democracy in the communal level among other things. And so while these two points in history, especially the last one for the reunification, while that one didn’t really click in terms of setting up a nationwide referendum, I think it really really pushed the buttons for people to try to get their voting right at the communal and statewide level. 

Stephan Kyburz: And also looking at the European Union, I guess, you know, direct democracy is becoming more of a hot topic, I would say that countries look at each other and say like, oh, they have had a referendum on this treaty and they had a referendum on this. So I think that will also push and give more kind of a promotion to direct democracy, right? Are you like connected with other organizations in other countries? 

Jan Renner: Oh, yeah, we are very much connected with people in Switzerland organizations, in Switzerland. And I know in the Netherlands we are very much connected with people. There’s an Austrian branch of Mehr Demokratie, which is somehow, which we support obviously. So there’s definitely connections to two other organizations in other countries. And speaking of Switzerland, of course, Switzerland for everybody who’s interested in advocating for their democracy always has a look at what the Swiss are doing. And hence, especially in Bavaria, we are, not only because we are geographically fairly close compared to other states and generally, but yeah, that’s where w e also get a lot of inspiration, I would say for direct democracy. Also because the Bavarian constitution, the State constitution is heavily influenced by the Swiss. So, the Founding Fathers of the Constitution of the Bavarian State, they took refuge in the Swiss exile during World War II. And when they came back, they were so influenced by the Swiss direct democratic system that they tried to implement some forms of what they saw in Switzerland into the Bavarian constitution. So yeah, there’s definitely historically but also currently exchange and overlaps with international organizations and partners. 

Stephan Kyburz: That’s super interesting. I didn’t know that about Bavaria. And so at the national level, what would be technically the hurdle? It would need a change in the basic law, right? Of Germany. And this could only happen through parliament, right? And what would be the hurdles?

Jan Renner: I think it would need just a change in basic law. The constitution actually, that’s also very interesting, I do believe there are entire libraries being written about that particular part of the German constitution because technically it doesn’t disallow referendums to happen. I think it’s section 20 where it says there are… Elections are being held in Germany but also other mechanisms of voting, I guess you could loosely translate it. And this particular part, other mechanisms of voting is what we as Mehr Demokratie and other people as well could see as like the loophole in order to establish direct democracy on the national level. And so yeah, it would be possible there would just need to be the political will for it. And in the past, especially since the reunification of Germany, I think almost every legislation period there have been some efforts to try to establish or to some initiatives in Parliament to actually establish the nationwide referendum, but all of them have been declined. I remember, also the last government prior to the now existing one. So this was from 2017 to 2021, the so-called big coalition. So the conservatives and the social democrats are in power and they in their coalition agreement, they promised to hold a commission on direct democracy and further citizen engagement. But this commission never was put into place. Of course, granted there was an unprecedented health crisis coming in halfway through the legislation period, but still was kind of disappointing for us to see that this commission actually failed to happen. And so there was no real new progress in that sense. And this could also be seen as a point for somebody like us to say, okay, you know what? Direct democracy currently on the national level, it’s not the main topic. It’s important that we are there to remind politicians that this could be or would be a major, major step forward for German democracy. But we also need to acknowledge that maybe right as of right now, other means, for instance, citizen assemblies are what the politicians in parliament are more looking towards which the current government actually does. So there’s in the coalition agreement of the current government, the citizen assemblies are featured and for this legislation period, which takes four years, there will be three citizen assemblies actually introduced by the parliament itself. So that’s a cool step forward. But let’s see how this goes. 

Stephan Kyburz: My worry, as I mentioned before, is that I think citizens assemblies could almost become like an excuse for parliamentarians. They say, oh, you know, the citizens are already involved, what else do you want, right? But it doesn’t give really power to the citizens in the end. Because usually, first of all, they’re almost always or always advisory. And second of all, it’s not the people that decide, right? It’s a very small selection, a random selection of people that is there, you know? And so it’s not for everyone. 

Jan Renner: Absolutely, you’re absolutely right. And this is also why we say citizen assemblies could never be the only tool, so to speak, right? As of right now, we say this could be a gateway into talking about direct democracy on the national level, but we also say if there is a citizen assembly, it needs to be very clear how these recommendations, how these advisory boards, how these things are then turned into policy or if not the government needs to really clearly state why they wouldn’t accept these particular recommendations from citizen assemblies. But as you said, it’s not the end of it all. It’s not the final solution. The citizen assemblies.

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, but it could be a step on the way, for sure. So interestingly also that a lot of constitutions actually allow, you know, for direct democratic participation, but often those articles are like dormant. You know, they’re not used or the hurdles are too high. Actually, there is an interesting example, also Taiwan. Taiwan had direct democracy in its first constitution very early on, but it was never really used and I think the hurdles were just too high and then suddenly the people said like, okay, why don’t we, you know, lower these hurdles to actually make that article, that was all… It was there all the time, you know, never used really and they made it useful in the end. And now it’s a very vibrant direct democracy. So if there is already, you know, a foot in the door, it’s always easier to get in. 

Jan Renner: But I do think it’s interesting how… It just struck me as you were mentioning this. How sometimes certain things that are put in the constitution, well, it’s been overlooked for so many years and then once in a while somebody looks into it. Berlin, oh, this, that’s in our constitution, we could actually do something with it. And that’s what happened with the expropriation citizen initiative in Berlin that took place last year. Because the German constitution actually allows for expropriation, but just for a lot of years, no one has ever really took it to use or use it and now they were like, hey, it’s actually… The constitution allows for something like this, so why not use it as a referendum or an initiative first, a citizen initiative. It just struck me as you said, they it is there, but you just also have to use it. 

Stephan Kyburz: So for people all around the world, go back and read your constitution. 

Stephan Kyburz: Do you have any books or articles you could recommend on your work or direct democracy or more generally?

Jan Renner: Yeah, I do fear though that most of them will be in German. So sorry for all our international listeners. 

Stephan Kyburz: Yeah, I’ll put them there anyway. And also translation tools are getting better and better. 

Jan Renner: That’s true. So one scientist, one political scientist who needs to be mentioned here is Otmar Jung. He has been, I think he devoted almost his entire life, I would say, to researching direct democracy in Germany from a legal point of view, but also from a like a political science point of view. So he’s definitely worth mentioning. And also not to give ourselves like a pat on the back or to self-plug ourselves here, but we as Mehr Demokratie issue reports on a yearly basis on the state of direct democracy, whether that’s on the statewide levels and also on the communal levels. We also put out other reports on the European Union and direct democracy, basically everything we work on we also put on our reports. And especially in the terms of direct democracy, we have a political scientist working for us. So that’s also why we claim not to be just activists, but also to have like a scientific approach to our work that we do. So there are multiple reports and other issues that we are working on, which will be featured in some sort of publication that we do.

Stephan Kyburz: Thanks a lot. I’ll put this all in the show notes and also check out these other academics. I think it’s important to have scientific underlying for arguments etc, etc. I wish there would be more design thinking in general in political science. But yeah. So Jan Renner, thanks a lot for taking the time. I really appreciated it. And I wish you all the best with your work and hopefully we can have another conversation maybe at some later point in time. 

Jan Renner: Yeah. Thanks a lot, Stephan. Thanks for having me. This was fun.